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Stop Overperforming: Madam Speaker on Leadership, Peace & Knowing When to Pause | Coffee with E

• Erica Rawls

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This episode of Coffee with E is one for every ambitious woman who feels the pressure to overperform, prove herself, and never slow down.

I sit down with Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton, a true history-maker, the first woman and first Black woman to serve as Speaker of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives, for a powerful, grounded conversation about leadership, faith, peace, and knowing when to pause.

We talk about:

  • Why women feel the need to overwork to prove their worth
  • Learning to step away without guilt and without apology
  • How faith, peace, and self-awareness guide real leadership
  • The danger of choosing performance over purpose
  • Recognizing when you’re in alignment vs. obligation
  • Stepping into opportunities you never planned for
  • Why rest, breaks, and boundaries are not weaknesses

Madam Speaker shares honest lessons from her journey, from working quietly behind the scenes to leading one of the most powerful legislative bodies in the state and why no title is worth sacrificing your wellbeing.

If you’re a woman in leadership, public service, business, or simply trying to build something meaningful without burning yourself out, this conversation will speak directly to you.

☕ Reminder:

You don’t need to prove anything.
You’re already there.

Subscribe, share this with someone who needs permission to pause, and join a growing community committed to leadership with purpose, peace, and longevity.

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Erica Rawls:

Welcome to another episode of Coffee with E. This one is really special, y'all. I had the privilege of sitting down with Madel speaker, Joanna McClinton. Now, I need to run down a couple things because she is not your ordinary speaker of the house, okay? She is young, she is dynamic, and she is definitely a go-getter. So I want to run down some things. She was the originally from Southwest Philadelphia, okay? She has an education in political science. In 2018, she became the first woman and first African American elected as House Democratic Caucus Chair in the Pennsylvania House. In 2020, she was the first woman elected House Democratic leader in the chamber's 244-year history. She was elected Speaker of the Pennsylvania House of Representative, becoming the first woman and first black woman, second black person ever to serve as a speaker in Pennsylvania. When I tell you, I was so excited to do all those things to be a history maker, to be a ceiling breaker. That is just puts me in awe. Today's roast, time out for being the Energizer Bunny, the pink bunny with the sunglasses on, thinking he can always go and go and go and go. You can. You do not have to overperform all the time. It is good for you to take time off. Now I know I get it, you're ambitious, you're a go-getter, you have something to prove, but not to the point where you're no longer here on earth. That sounds serious. And it's true because it does happen. Do greatness in bite-sized pieces so that you can maintain your well-being because you deserve to live the best life that you possibly can. Healthy. That's the only way you're going to be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor. Subscribe and join our community. The more people that know, the bigger our community is going to grow. We have a lot of great things coming. So so much of your journey that you've done has been so quiet. Like you do it quietly. I mean, you show up, you do the work, and you serve others, rarely like getting the recognition. So let's go back to that time, if you will, okay? And share with us what it taught you about trusting yourself, okay? While waiting for the life that you're working towards.

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

Absolutely. So when I was growing up, I never thought about public service. I didn't know anyone in public service. It was not on my when I grew up list. So my when I grew up list was lawyer, preacher, hairdresser, actress. Um got some of those things done. I did my twist last night. Um on a break from seminary. Uh yes, been in one place. So you might be a preacher. I am. You are a preacher. Look at that. But when it comes to being in the forefront, that's never been my thing. I um had to be in the forefront, you know, for my clients as a public defender. Right. Learn how to fight for them in my church as a youth minister and the leader there. I learned how to organize, how to pick people up, how to make plans, how to put together programs and mentorship. And, you know, a lot of that is behind the scenes. Um, and then when I was a year and a half into a new job here in the Capitol, you know, my representative retired unexpectedly in the middle of a term, and my senator said, Joe, yeah, you should come to the light.

Erica Rawls:

And I was like, Wow, isn't that funny how that happens? Yeah. When you're not ready. Yeah. It's like, okay, so how did that feel?

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

It felt stressful, overwhelming, and completely scary because I'm very comfortable being behind the scenes, and I'm very comfortable putting together things and saying, oh, this is for this person. But I was uncomfortable and had to really stretch my mindset when it came to getting out front, getting in the public, even making the decision to run. It's like, you don't have to do it. Somebody's gonna do it, somebody's gonna win, and multiple people are gonna run. So, you know, you don't have to do it, but it's a decision I had to make quickly. Yeah, and I just kept thinking, especially having worked here, what if, you know, next year, this time I'm at work and I'm thinking, I could have been a state robber. See, I could have found something I love. I didn't try, I didn't trust myself, and I decided I don't want the what if.

Erica Rawls:

I have to go for it. I know that's right. And I love that because um a lot of people that are in our community, they know they're capable of it, but perhaps have that fear, that little inkling, like, okay, small voice or listen to the wrong one. So, how did you get over that hump by saying, Yep, no, I am gonna do it, afraid and all?

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

Well, it was essentially just jumping in the water scared and kicking your legs and breathing. Yes. I'll tell you, you know, when we had that conversation, it was less than a week that I had to make that decision and it was needed. Less than a week. Yes. It was not like, you know, pray, think, fast, you know, breathe in and out, go to meditation. Yes. Nah. Yeah. It was not a long runway at all. It was a short time to make that decision. And I just, as I share, I thought, like, I could be at this job next year doing well. But what if I missed out on something that could be life-changing and that I also loved? Like I loved being a public defender. And I am so grateful to say I love being my neighborhood state rep and I love being my colleague state house speaker.

Erica Rawls:

Yes. So then just when you sit by yourself and you're having coffee, no titles or anything, when you think about the person you had to become to carry the responsibilities that you're carrying today, like what was that thought? What did you think about there?

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

Well, you had to think about are people gonna support me? So, first in the neighborhood, are they gonna choose me? And then once, you know, that seems to be a relationship I'm building and working on, stepping out to run for leadership is another separate election.

Erica Rawls:

Yes.

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

So it's like, yes, you're on the ballot, your neighbors decide you or not you, keep you or fire you. But then when it comes to the end of the election cycle in November, we come up here the week after the election and we decide who should be in leadership roles. And it can be anybody.

Erica Rawls:

Right.

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

Anybody. It's not like, oh, you know, you're anointed king. Right. It can be anybody. And anytime it can be someone running against you, and you can just be back in your regular office doing your regular job or never have the chance.

Erica Rawls:

Right, right. Yeah, that's that's something that I think about often. Like, one, to be in the spotlight and then to be elected and get the people behind you, then have to come in here and then have to do it all over again. Like, okay, this is gonna be a lot. So, and you handle it well. Um, just watching you break ceilings and do all the things like I know there's a lot of um black and brown children, girls are looking up to you like, yes, this is just, I want to be just like her one day. And I know it's a huge responsibility. I could goosebump just saying it. I know that's a huge responsibility. Like, how do you carry that all that weight? Because that's a big, you know what I mean, mantle to be on. So, yeah, how do you do it?

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

For me, it's just so much of what my mom has taught me and faith. It's my faith that carries me through the journey. You know, everybody has a different way of being centered, of being calm. And for me, I've just been taught from her example and from what I've learned and my own experience with faith is that I have to trust my maker that things are gonna work out and go well. And it doesn't mean it's easy at all. Right. It doesn't mean, what do they say online? It doesn't mean it's not heavy just because it looks like it's something enjoyable to carry. You know, it is significant responsibility, but I am doing it for that reason. Yeah. Because I want many women to go higher than I'm gonna ever get to go. Yeah. To go fast what I'm doing. Like, sure, I'm in this office. There were 140 men to precede me in this office. Right. I'm looking forward to 140 women succeeding in this office. And women doing things that we haven't done in PA. Yeah. Becoming a United States senator, getting elected to the governor's office. I mean, there's still much more room for women in politics and public service. And I pray and hope that I am leading in a way to give an example, but just as the encouragement, not to be, you know, the gold standard. Put me down at silver. You go far beyond.

Erica Rawls:

No, that's right. I know that is right. One of the things I think about often uh when it comes to being a woman in leadership and just having so many responsibilities is how do you find peace? And also how do you define it? And does it, does that definition, does it change often for you? Like what does that look like?

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

So for me, it's a constant. Like peace is something that I have to have. It's not just, oh, I'm on vacation, so I have peace. What about all the weeks I'm at work and I'm not on vacation? That's right. I gotta have peace. That's true. Because if not, you know, the stress is gonna be overwhelming to me. So for me, it is a constant and it is something that I try to not only have, but to spread around. Yes. You know, believe it or not, the way we come off to other people, it either gives them stress or it gives them peace also. That is so. So it's something that I make effort to maintain. And once again, for me, it that's centered in my faith, that's centered in me taking time to pray, taking time to be reminded of what the promises are to me and being reminded through song. You know, I get myself in a good place so that I can not only stay peaceful, but make sure I share it so that it's I'm not stingy with it. I want other people to know when they talk to me, even if they're on 100, I'm gonna be on 75. Like, all right, right, let's figure out how to get out of this challenge.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, that is so good. So then, um, and I find that peace for me, um, it has been evolving and it had to be because when you're younger, peace may be just like, okay, um, I wanna, I don't know, read a book, right? But sometimes reading a book or even meditating is not good enough. I find, right? Maybe now it's um I'll um meditate or I'll um massage or I'll, you know, need to go away unplugged for a lot of a lot of days, not being around people, just being in isolation. So it does, it evolves a lot. And I think a lot of times that people take that for granted, right? Um, and when you're alone sometimes, even it's some some for some people is even hard to be in peace with themselves. I mean, yeah, I know, right? Yes, yeah.

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

So pajamas, a scarf, everything is quiet.

Erica Rawls:

Everything is quiet. No meetings, yeah. But some people are even afraid to be alone with themselves.

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

I will do what I need to do because it's just it's a blessing. It is a blessing to kind of like take moments to just see how you're doing. You know, when we're constantly with everybody else, we don't know how we're doing. Right because we're like dealing with them and helping this one and being for that one. But how are we really? Because we just kind of go through the motions on auto. We don't know how we really are until we take a moment, as you said, because when you said massage, uh at the peak up. Yeah. So we take a moment to get that massage and sip some cocoa and really breathe out that we figure out how are we doing and how can we maintain a calmness, but most importantly, the confidence.

Erica Rawls:

That's right. So, and I, okay, so I'm getting all excited, um, Madam Speaker, please. Because let's think about this. So, a lot of people think because you're feeling well, okay, you're doing well as also. But for me, when you're doing well is something that's internal, right? And just having that, being able to center yourself, um, knowing when to um just to be quiet with yourself and know that, okay, my body's feeling okay. Um, you know, my mind's doing okay. So when you said doing well, that just like triggers something for me because a lot of people take that for granted too. I believe they're like, okay, well, I'm feeling okay. Well, are you really? Yeah. So how are you really doing? And a lot of women, especially in leadership, they don't take the time to just to stop, just to feel, okay, am I really doing well in this situation? So yeah, thank you for saying that. I appreciate that. Okay, so how then, how, Madam Speaker, do you know the difference between being in alignment, right? And doing something out of obligation. Okay. And then um when or how do you show your signals as far as um, okay, I need to reset or I need to pause? Because there's a difference.

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

Absolutely. So dealing with the latter first, I'm grateful to have an awesome team here in Harrisburg and in my district office. And we were at a retreat for the district office staff just recently. And one of the men in the office says, She works too much. I said, No, why don't you tell them the story of the other day? And he said, Oh. He said, Oh, the other day we left the school and she didn't feel right. And she said, I'm gonna go in the house for the rest of the day. I said, Yeah. So you want to focus on me working too much, but you don't want to share when I was in a moment of I'm not feeling right. And I know if I go to an event, there's gonna be, you know, people want to make a speed, want to say hello. And if you don't feel right physically, they're gonna say, Oh, she's got an attitude. What's the matter? I tell you what. I told him to tell that whole crowd there, because there were three district office staffs present. Yeah. Like, don't just tell them I work a lot, tell them also when I'm not right, I step away. I'm not like out here trying to prove anything and say, I've got an S on my chest and knowing I'm not right. Right. People are like, Are you okay? You look like you're gonna be sick. Like I was like, no, you know, we I was fine at the school. Yeah, it was a school boy and got in the car and didn't feel right. And I said, the rest of the day is cancel. Mm-hmm.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah. No, you you're never good when you um do that to yourself anyway. So then to the young woman that's out there, right? So you're able to recognize it. So, what are some things that you would share with them so they can recognize it? Because a lot of people, they choose performance over purpose, right? Okay, I want to do this, I'm gonna just show the part, I'm gonna wear the S on my chest.

unknown:

Yes.

Erica Rawls:

And they're not ready.

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

So that was me. That was me 20 years ago. And in some ways, that was me 10 years ago when I started this job. When you're doing something, it's something that women have in common, we want to prove our worth and we want to prove that we can do it. We don't have enough time. We don't have enough time, but I'll say, as a young public defender, two or three years in the job, I can't remember this minute, but I got four weeks of vacation. I never used them ever. Why? Because I was proving that, you know, I'm the best young lawyer in the office. I'm dedicated to my clients. I don't need a break. I'm energetic. I'm spunky. And sadly, on a serious note, we lost back to back three lawyers. And so the excuses that the office also had been giving me like you have to have two months of planning. I also wasn't able to look at a calendar and say, you know, in December, I'm gonna take off in February. That's not how I was living my life at 25. Right. Like that was hard for me. Yeah. I saw our office lose three lawyers, two of which were my age, and one of which was a little bit older. And I just thought, this is devastating. This is crushing. You know, their families came, we had memorials, we got to be with their families. And I noticed something. Everybody moved on. The office moved on. They found somebody to cover their cases. Everyone's replaceable. Yeah. And when I was 25, I did not know that was a thing. You, I just thought, like, I've got to prove myself. I gotta prove myself. And so when I started as a state rep 10 years ago, you know, I was brand new. I had no prior interest in public service. So I wasn't doing the groundwork to build connections, follow up. Right. So everything is new. I'm like at the deep end of the pool. I had a special election and was getting ready for another one. And I was stressed.

Erica Rawls:

Yes.

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

So that means because I wasn't carrying that piece around, right? I was carrying stress around. So I was giving it to my staff, giving it to everybody, because I'm like, what's going on? How do we do this? But I'm grateful that that version of myself is in the past. That I don't live on the edge in the cliff of needing to have my hands and my feet totally involved in every project to make sure it goes well, that I trust people, that I delegate, and then most importantly, I take the breaks because it's just the same way I was in the special election. There'll be one for when I'm no longer here. Right. And then everybody will move on and keep going. They may cry a second, and they'll be like, oh, she was nice. Next, who's the who's the replacement speaker? Right. Who's the next day rep? So because of that and understanding it now better than ever, I definitely take the breaks and want to tell all the young women watching to you don't have to prove anything. You're there. You're there.

Erica Rawls:

Yes. You do not have to, and also it's okay to be selfish when it comes to your well-being. Yes. Like it's okay to take breaks. It's okay to say, I'm not coming today. And it's okay to not say I'm sorry about it. Because, like you said, when they're gone, they're gonna find a replacement. That is so good. So then this is something that you didn't wake up and plan to do when you were a little child, when you were a young child, and it fell into your lap. Um, I want to touch on getting in position when you're not, when you weren't even thinking about it. What could you say to someone that may be in a similar situation? They may be young, right? They may even be younger than what you were. Sure, sure. Right. So what would you say to them? I know you spell you talked a bit about it a little bit, but I want to go in a little deeper because there's a lot of people I believe need to hear this. It's it resonates all the time on social media, all the time. Like either they're overlooked because they didn't open their mouth or they were capable and um they they decided that they didn't want to fail forward. So, what can you share with them?

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

Absolutely. So I just want everybody to know that you are in a job, maybe a new job, but you could also at the same time be auditioning for a role you didn't anticipate. That's good. Because I'm telling you, when I tell you, that's real, my boss never even heard me speak in the public because that wasn't my job in his office. Yes. I wasn't standing up at events giving a speech. That wasn't my job. And it just so happened that one month before the special election, he visited my church for another purpose and I introduced him. And his mouth was on the ground, and he's like, I didn't even know that you you don't talk at work. He was like, You don't talk at work. I'm like, well, that's not my job. I mean, I talk, but you know, I'm not like you know, up there giving speeches and trying to get people excited. Correct. It wasn't the rule. Right. And so when there was an opportunity for me to display that gift that I have, no wonder the next month, when there was a resignation in our neighborhood, he was like, Oh, Joanna, I just saw her a couple weeks ago like, and I didn't speak that day thinking, and guess what? In a month, I'm gonna be a candidate for special election. No, no, I could have never put that piece in my mind together because I wasn't there at all. And so you just need to show up and do your best all the time. And when someone comes to you and says, Hey, these are opportunities. Who do you think should apply? If you believe it's you, speak up. Yes. Don't speak down and be scared because I could have very easily just been like not interested, don't have the stomach for it. I don't know how to do it. I've never been involved. I'll never get the support, the money, the fundraising, like it's all a foreign language. But I really stepped out on faith and I'm so very grateful that I'm here today.

Erica Rawls:

And then too, sometimes you just don't need to share it with people. I just take action. Yep. Because you may even be in a group of people that may not be ready to receive where you're where you're going. Yeah. So sometimes it's okay to just do it and say, oh, and guess what I did? Because they can't see it. Because they cannot see it and they're not supposed to see it.

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

That's right. Yeah. And it's not that they don't believe in you, but they have a version of you in their head, and that's what they've seen so far. But you can go in your house and write down your goals and see another version of yourself.

Erica Rawls:

Right. Because you're evolving. And sometimes you may even evolve out of the um the group of friends or you know, relationships that you're in, and it's okay. That is okay. That is so good. Okay. So your hands are clammy, you're nervous, you get ready to give a speech for the first time ever. Okay. So I want to know what is your walk-on song to keep in mind.

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

A walk-on song. Yes, what is your song? So a default that I hear a lot from a DJ in our neighborhood, he plays uh Joanna. Okay. That Joe, Joe, kind of like calms you down when you're at a community event. Yes. And you can just relax and be silly and dance a little bit.

Erica Rawls:

I love it. I love it. Thank you so much. Is there anything you want to share to our young women who are ambitious, go-getters, leaders, doing the darn thing? Is there anything that you want to leave with them?

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

Sure. I just want to tell all of you to continue in your push. It's hard, it's difficult. Nothing is perfect or easy. A lot of times we envision, like, well, if I just get here, it'll be better or it'll be easier. Every job I've ever had is tough. Waiting tables, working as chief counsel to my senator, speaker of the house. I've never had an easy role scheduling for hospitals back home, but that doesn't mean you're not building something. So keep going and you will get to see what you're building.

Erica Rawls:

That's awesome. Thank you so much for your time.

Madam Speaker Joanna McClinton:

Thank you.

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Erica Rawls

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