Coffee With E

Let It Go: Decluttering, Identity & New Beginnings with Sarah Hackenberg

• Erica Rawls

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🔥“You need to make space for what’s next. But first, you have to let go.”

In this deeply personal and powerful conversation, Coffee with E host Erica Rawls sits down with Sarah Hackenberg, founder of Grace in Cycles, to explore the emotional side of decluttering and how clearing physical space can help unlock your truest self.

From the grief of giving things away to the freedom that follows, this conversation goes beyond organization. It’s about trusting your voice, healing from burnout, and finding peace in your own home.

🎙️ You’ll Hear:

• Why some people cry when decluttering (and why that’s normal)

• The three-box rule: keep, toss, donate but do it with intention

• How Sarah went from school librarian to business owner

• The truth about clutter and trauma

• A fresh take on minimalism that isn’t about deprivation

Whether you’re overwhelmed by your closet, going through a breakup, or ready to reclaim your space, this episode will meet you there.

🔗 Sponsored by:

TOCH Construction • Allstate Insurance – Rob Shaw

Chavis Law Firm • Dirty Dog Hauling

💼 Powered by The Erica Rawls Team

#CoffeeWithE #GraceInCycles #DeclutteringYourLife #LetGoToGrow #WomenWhoLead #AuthenticLiving #MakeRoomForMore #SelfDiscoveryJourney #EricaRawlsTeam



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Erica Rawls:

Hey you, I just had the amazing privilege of sitting down with Sarah Hackenberg. She owns a decluttering company called Grace in Cycles. It is absolutely amazing the conversation that we had. Who knew talking about clutter would take us to spaces like living your true, authentic selves, being able to truly identify who you are, to let go and to allow other things to come into your life. Y'all I'm really excited. I need you to sit back and watch this, because I believe you're going to take something out of this. Be prepared to take notes and guess what? My favorite thing. I'm looking forward to meeting you in the comments. Hey you, today's roast.

Erica Rawls:

How about getting rid of things that no longer serve you? A lot of times, we like to keep things for monumental reasons, and then one thing after another starts piling up and piling up and all of a sudden, you have a room full of things. Thing after another starts piling up and piling up and all of a sudden, you have a room full of things, things that no longer serve you. How about we get rid of those things so you allow new things to come into your life? Because when you hold on to the past, sometimes it doesn't serve us well. We have reminders good or bad, and sometimes it's better just to move forward with new thoughts, new energy, new ideas, new light into your life. Sarah, I'm so happy to have coffee with you today. Thanks for inviting me. You're so welcome. You're so welcome. So you heard the roast.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Yes, it was perfect. It's like you read my mind Really. Oh, absolutely. How so? Well, because, as an organizer, I am wanting to tell people that exact thing that, while you want to honor the things from your past, you need to take stock of where you are now and if those things serve you that's the exact language I often use and then consider what do you want for yourself in the future? Yeah, and the things that you hold right now maybe you need to let go, like you said, to make space and give yourself energy for your future dreams.

Erica Rawls:

Well, the reason I brought it up is because I'm going through this coaching program. Rory Abadon, brand Builders, and he always says that his famous I guess one-liner is the best person to serve is the person you once were.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Interesting.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah. So the reason why I was so near and dear to me is because we just recently had the idea of just purging all these things. I live around people that like to hold on to things, yes, and I realized, maybe a couple months ago I even had one of my dear friends come over and just like, okay, I need your help to help me, let go. Yes, and she was able to guide me. Like okay, you want to. She put it into three categories of things you want to keep, things you want to throw away and things you're going to donate Perfect Right. So it's because of that experience I'm able to roast, because I know exactly that person, because I was that person a couple months ago.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Yes, yeah, and that connects so much with what I say to clients in the beginning, when we're talking about organizing and what they want. I say well, you need to think of a very specific goal. What do you want for yourself moving forward? Why are you decluttering?

Erica Rawls:

Yeah.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Because, yeah, there are three categories keeping getting rid of trashing but it's helpful to keep in mind why you're doing it, because what will come after you go through that process, whether it's allowing space for the next thing, whether it's letting go to receive more energy for what the future holds, but the goal, yeah, is really important. What do you want for yourself next?

Erica Rawls:

And I know there's sometimes where, when you throw away a thing, I caught myself getting a little bit choked up because I'm like man, am I letting go of something like a loved one that passed away? Right, Like how am I going to be able to remember them? So it starts becoming emotional.

Sarah Hackenberg:

It's very emotional, which is why it's so wonderful you had your friend with you. Yeah, because whether you work with an organizer or a friend or a family member, it really can help the process to share it with someone, especially if it's something sentimental. The most important thing is the stories and the memories you have of the loved one, not the thing itself, and being able to share in the process of getting rid of something, share the story that this thing is holding for you. That can help let it go.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, yeah, dirty Dog Hauling. Thank you so much for your sponsorship. If you're looking for junk removal company, they are the go-to company. Whether you have a small job or a large job and even excavation, you want to check them out. They are reasonable and also timely and effective. Dirty Dog Hauling. Now back to the show. So I know that you, so you and I met. Yes, you and I met through, of course, real estate.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Yes, you found me my forever home, which makes me so happy. Four or five years later, yes, and I was sort of starting over with my life.

Erica Rawls:

Yes, yes, let's talk about that. So when we actually met, you had decided okay, I'm starting over, yeah, and you were here. You were in the area, correct, were you in San Diego at the time?

Sarah Hackenberg:

Yes, but just barely so I had. I grew up in central Pennsylvania, I left for college and sort of lived outside of Pennsylvania my whole adult life. Got married. Got married and after my divorce came back here to sort of be with family and figure out what was next for me and came to Harrisburg to work with the Harrisburg School District. I was a librarian for a long time, until then deciding that I was ready to follow my next dream, which was own, my own business. But I met you just when I was thinking about coming to Harrisburg and settling down and starting to pick set roots down. And it's been a wonderful five years having a home, that where I feel that peaceful sanctuary is meaningful, and then just I love our area. We have so many wonderful things happening so I think it's the best kept secret, I do.

Erica Rawls:

I agree in Pennsylvania.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Yeah, I really do think so.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, because it costs a living and we're so close to you know, dc to New York, philadelphia, like all the major metropolitan areas. Yeah, so what? Maybe two hours away, two and a half? I know Training, I just love it. Yeah, a hundred percent. So then, one of the things that I know you and I talked about, we had an additional cup of coffee.

Sarah Hackenberg:

It's turning into a habit having coffee with you.

Erica Rawls:

It is, and that's okay. Yeah, what? What was it that drew you to your new profession?

Sarah Hackenberg:

So I had been a school librarian for 20 years. It had been wonderful, Loved it, loved it, loved it. And you know, education has changed in 20 years and also 20 years doing the same thing. Sometimes you start to realize you just need to change. Yeah, and I took some time to think about it and this little voice in my head just kept saying what if you worked for yourself? What if you ran your own business? What?

Sarah Hackenberg:

would that look like. Is that what you want? And you know, along with decluttering and making choices about our things more and more, I just keep doubling down on making choices for myself and what I want for myself. And it's so powerful and obviously you don't just move from, like you know, clearing out your junk drawer to you know what I want next for myself you know, start a business, but you do sort of keep expanding your view of well, I could also make a choice about this.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Well, if I'm not taking for granted what I live with, and therefore I always have to have these things, if I'm not taking for granted what I live with, and therefore I always have to have these things, if I'm making choices about that, I can also start to make choices about what else I want for myself in my life what new hobby I want to pick up.

Sarah Hackenberg:

What for me, what relationship I didn't want? We talked a little bit about my marriage, which was really hard for me to walk away from, but it was a healthy decision for me. And so you just keep practicing until one day you're like I am going to better myself and start a new business. So here I am a year later yeah, very happy to be helping people declutter and access what's important to them, right right. So often our things just weigh us down and we get into the middle of it and we're just not sure how to move forward anymore. And it is such a privilege for me to be allowed by people to be brought into their home to help them move forward and let go of some of the things that are holding them back, so just so we are.

Erica Rawls:

We speak to you. Know the people our community, yes, who are young women, who are people, our community, who are young women, who are up with the global, ambitious go-getters. Right Then, they are pretty much just dynamic in their own way. Had to take two seconds to thank Allstate Insurance for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking for car life or casualty insurance, they're gonna be your ultimate insurance company. Thank you, rob Shaw, with Allstate Insurance. Now back to the show, and however they may struggle with letting go, one of the things I did hear you say was that it may not be that you had to go through a process yourself of letting go before you actually got into your own business. Yes, can you speak to them, because there may be someone that's right now going through that same thing. Yep, afraid to make decisions, confidence in their decisions in order to let go.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Yes, oh, my goodness, I do think it's something. Again, that is a practice. Making choices gets a little easier with practice and making choices, even though it might seem small about. You know, is my wardrobe reflective of who I want to be, and do I feel good every time I put something on for my wardrobe? So it's sort of basic, but it's meaningful because you know what you put on represents you. But making that choice to then, who am I? Who am I? Who am I and how am I going to make sure that no one else is influencing my thoughts about who I am? We just always have to keep practicing that and, unfortunately for me, I learned that the hard way.

Sarah Hackenberg:

You know, I had a pretty unhealthy marriage where, um, yeah, my ex-husband was very sure of what he wanted and very sure of what his partner should look like, sound like, and, um, yeah, I got to some pretty dark places where I didn't trust myself anymore. Oh, wow and um, but I? But I think because and I bet so many people in your audience are like this we are strong women and there are many things that we're confident about. I was confident that I was a smart person, I was successful professionally and yet. Therefore, I kept thinking well, I can make this work, I can make this relationship work and it slid into.

Sarah Hackenberg:

I can make this work, I can make this relationship work and it slid into. I can keep this person happy and I won't worry as much about me, because I'm fine. I'm fine, I will focus on making this person happy. But, at the end of the day, that's not our job. No, to make someone else happy, right, and the more energy you put into that, the less you have for yourself. And, as I did, you come to a place where you don't know who you are anymore, so that was so good.

Erica Rawls:

And there's so many nuggets in there oh, there were so many nuggets like for one that you stop focusing on becoming who you were and the focus is on making the other person happy, right, so forget about ourselves. Yep, we're going to make her, make the other person happy.

Sarah Hackenberg:

And society tells women that all the time. Yeah, all the time. And you know, yes, for me my marriage was unhealthy, but I think we can have healthy relationships and still get caught in that trap.

Erica Rawls:

And still get caught in the trap. How so?

Sarah Hackenberg:

Because even because you have a pretty healthy relationship with your parents or your kids or your partner. And why wouldn't we want to make someone happy that we love, right, yeah, and is it a big deal to always let them pick the movie or always let them pick what we're having for dinner? That's not a big deal, right? And is it a big deal to always let them pick the movie or always let them pick what we're having for dinner? That's not a big deal, right? And so? And we just want to make this person we love happy. And maybe they don't realize it and they take advantage and just sort of keep being like, oh yeah, this is great, I always pick the movie.

Sarah Hackenberg:

But again, the little choices that you're not making for yourself can build into something that's unhealthy. So it is a trap that you just always want to keep touching back on. Am I where I want to be? Am I who I want to be? Am I able to be that person everywhere in my life? Like I said, I was very successful professionally. I was getting great feedback. I felt like my true self just what you talk about, my true, authentic self when I was a school librarian, and so I ignored the fact that I was not my true, authentic self in my marriage. Wow.

Erica Rawls:

So it's funny that you say that, because I have conversations with my daughters all the time about how, how important it is to become a me. Yes, and you truly know who me or I am. Yes, before you can become a we. Absolutely.

Erica Rawls:

Those are conversations that we didn't necessarily have you know what I mean before entering into our marriages. Yeah, so I can understand how you could lose sight of yourself. So that's why when people, when your children, leave the nest like, you're like heartbroken, and part of it has to do with because your identity is tied to the children that just left you.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Oh, my goodness Right, you're so right and I love that you said that, because our identity and how we identify ourself keeps changing, right? It's not a bad thing that one of your top or other people's top identifiers were was mom, right. But once you have an empty nest, you do sort of have to shift that, and it wasn't a bad thing for me necessarily to have a top identifier as being a wife, correct.

Erica Rawls:

There's nothing wrong with that.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Right, no, and yet, yeah, I lost myself right there. So you know, one message always is just remember that it's a process. You should continually be checking with yourself. What do I want for myself In addition to building this relationship that I'm part of?

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, yeah, this is so good, sarah. I know I'm going to keep saying it Y'all because it's so good, okay, and I hope you're taking notes Right. So here's the thing yes, you're the industry that you chose a profession. Yeah, I actually chose. Yes, ties a lot to the conversation that we just had. It does Okay. So let's let's talk about that, okay.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Because, again, choice. There is so much power in choice and and we all accumulate things almost without realizing it Sometimes, you know, we all have at least five things in our wardrobe that either don't fit us anymore but we think maybe they'll fit us next year, or we don't really like, but someone gave it to us so we feel bad about letting it go. Right, or that is my husband.

Erica Rawls:

Sorry, jessie, that is if someone bought it for him. Yeah, right, yes, he is not letting it go.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Guilt is very powerful.

Erica Rawls:

Does not. Do you think it's guilt, or is it just honor? I think for him it's honor, like he wants to honor the person that gave him that he loves, because he loves so deeply.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Yeah.

Erica Rawls:

Loves the person. So if they took the time to give him something, he's going to keep it forever.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Forever, I think forever is the challenge, you know, because, yes, is the challenge. You know, because, yes, we absolutely want to honor someone. We do, and but you know, I do often have clients who are at a point where they need to pare down. Maybe they're moving to a smaller house and they've kept all these things because they want to honor the person, but either they've got a closet full of these things that they never look at anymore, or now we have to make those decisions and I try to remind them that you know the person who gave you this thing. Right, if they truly love you, they would not want you to keep it only to honor them or because of guilt.

Erica Rawls:

So that's what you say to the person as you're going through your process. Yes, okay, decluttering. Okay, right, and so Is it well received.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Every once in a while, someone's like actually this person would totally want me to keep this. She would play the guilt yes, and you know I try not to make any judgments about that person and they would guilt you into keeping X thing. But at the end of the day, this does come back to our conversation. Just about you get to decide for you and you need to.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Maybe you want to have a conversation, right, you know that's your way of feeling, like I can still honor this person and say, hey, I appreciate that you gave me this blank and I've kept it all this time and at this point I'm realizing I'm going to need to get rid of it. It gives me more space for other things, or I'm letting go of a lot of things. Maybe you just group it into the process. Yeah, I've realized I need to regain some energy and part of that is letting go of some things that I've kept. Thank you so much for this. I guess you could offer. Would you like it to pass on to someone else, because if not, I'm going to donate it so that someone else can enjoy it.

Erica Rawls:

Moving forward, yeah, I had to take two seconds to interrupt this episode. I would like to thank one of our most recent guests, attorney Jenny Chavis, for sponsoring this show. Chavis Law Firm is an elite law firm in central Pennsylvania that helps with estate planning as well as understanding what type of business entity you should enter into when starting your business. If you're looking for a great attorney that understands estate planning as well as business entity how to start the right way, you want to check out Attorney Chavis, chavis Law Firm. Now back to the show. I like the fact that you said you know letting it go to allow other energy to come in.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Yes, yeah, that's good and it is amazing.

Sarah Hackenberg:

And it is amazing Again.

Sarah Hackenberg:

One of the things that I feel so privileged to do as an organizer is be there when people walk into a space that either I've declared independently or we've worked on together and watch their energy return, whether it's creative energy, because suddenly their project room, which had gotten too full and they couldn't even work there anymore, and suddenly they walk into a space that again has room and they just their creativity just starts bubbling out of them, yeah, or even just you know, if you come home after hard days of work and you sit down on your couch and, yes, you're watching TV, but really part of your brain is always thinking, oh, there's that pile of mail over there I should be doing.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Oh, there's that pile of clothes that I dropped at the door when I came in, I should be doing. Whether you know it or not, all of those things are niggling at you and draining energy, because you're constantly like, no, I get to relax, I'm not doing that. Oh man, I should do that. I'm not doing that, oh man, I should do that, I'm not doing that. And you're not aware of the conversation, but you're losing energy right to those piles.

Erica Rawls:

That's why sometimes it's hard for people to work from home. Yes, because they'll see, the laundry, those dishes aren't completed. They'll see, you know, toys everywhere. So they're not able to work from home because, like you said, it's draining their energy. It is, and then going to work is like a fresh place for them to just oh, I can exhale, you know. Just forget about it right out of sight, out of mind.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Yes, and this is true with kids so especially. You know, I taught online via zoom, yeah, with covid, um, so kids work working, doing their schoolwork from home, and people who have any kind of brain based condition, whether it's ADHD or something else Kids sometimes deal with that. There's a lot of studies that say a calm home environment makes a significant difference in that focus throughout your day, even when you're not home. If you have that calm home environment sort of to recharge in, yeah, that that can help your symptoms, um, throughout your day, and so there's something powerful about that just to engage the community.

Erica Rawls:

I would love to know, based on what she just said, if you actually went through the practice of decluttering, just getting rid of things, did you have a sense of like feeling like freedom? Did anyone shed a tear like I did when I cleaned out our whole house, like it just gives you so much energy? I would love to know if that was your experience, because hearing you talk, I know someone's like yep, yep, I can relate, I can relate.

Sarah Hackenberg:

I hope so. I hope so, and I will also say to the people who maybe are listening and they're thinking no, it didn't, because the opposite is, you have, you're seeing, so much clutter in your house that you try to declutter and you don't see progress, and so you end up just being frustrated. And so I just want to normalize that, because it really can be its own defeat to try to declutter and recognize that you're not functioning optimally in your space, or you're having trouble working from home, or you can't relax, and so you try to do what you see on TV and on social media. Hey, here's this decluttering trick, here's the strategy, and you try it, and either it doesn't work for you, because not every strategy works for every brain type, right, everything resonates differently with people, and also sometimes the project you pick Declutter that was worthwhile, but it's such a small piece within the big picture that it doesn't add up to the progress you need to see, to feel motivated to keep doing it. And so just you know, please don't be discouraged when that happens.

Sarah Hackenberg:

It is about doing small chunks at a time. Sometimes using a timer is helpful, but it's also about trying to focus on one category or one area. So it's not like, oh my gosh, look at that kitchen, I better do something over there. Oh, but look at this laundry, I better do that. And you bounce around from thing to thing and you do a little bit from each, but somehow it never amounts to as much progress as you want. Or you see other people having success with and that can really cause hardship and then make you feel honestly. Unfortunately, some people end up feeling like a failure and there can be a downward spiral.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, just as our positive energy builds as we successfully declutter, sometimes negative energy can build, as these things don't quite work right so let's walk through the process for someone that may be toying with the idea of getting rid of the old things that no longer serve them. Yes, yes, Can you walk us through?

Sarah Hackenberg:

that process. So I would say, the first thing I always recommend is thinking about the goal, and the goal could just be my house is chaotic and I want it to be peaceful. But you want to be more specific. You want to think, maybe, about one room. I want to sit down at my couch and not have my coffee table piled high. Okay, you want to, and how you're going to feel when that happens, okay.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Or I want to walk into my kids' playroom and not step on toys, and so, therefore, we're going to work with all the family's, going to work together, and we're going to get rid of the toys that our kids don't don't use anymore, they've aged out of. So you want to get a specific goal. Then you want to gather your tools. So this is like that's the mental. The practical is, you want to gather a trash bag. You want to gather a couple boxes for donations, maybe something for oh, we know someone else who could use this Maybe a giveaway box Recycling, but you want to have those with you. So it's not like, oh, here's some trash, let me wander over there and put it away. Well then, when you're over there, you get distracted and it's 10 minutes till you come back to your project, so you want to sort of have everything ready to go, okay, and then I would say the next thing to keep in mind is start small.

Erica Rawls:

Okay, so pick a small project. I'm a Chinese girl, so starting small is not easy.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Yes, it's not easy because you're like all right, I'm going to go through my closet, yeah, but you take everything out of your closet, you spread it in your bedroom, you start trying on clothes. Trying on clothes is exhausting, yeah and so no, not for me. Okay, okay, yeah and so no. No, ok, ok, no, but 30, 45, 60 minutes of it, which is at least what you're going to need. Yeah, you start to get tired, and when you get tired, suddenly you look around and your bedroom is a mess because you haven't dealt with all the clothes. And then you really are not happy because you're exhausted, you're sort of a little grumpy because not everything fit you the way you want it to anymore and you still have to clean up the mess in your bedroom.

Erica Rawls:

But, sarah, every fashion trend comes back around. So you're trying. You have to convince me, okay, yes, why I need to get rid of my clothes when I know that you know what I want to share a story with you. The leather trench, oh, that you know what I want to share a story with you? Okay, the leather trench, oh, and I loved it. It was burgundy, double-breasted with the pointy oh colors, not cheap. I'm sure this was back. I mean, I had to have been maybe 21 and so you spend some money on it, do you not know?

Erica Rawls:

I wish I had it today, because it's back, yes, so now you have to convince me why just like people like me, why we should throw away our clothes.

Sarah Hackenberg:

OK, first of all, remember you're not throwing them away. You're going to donate them to someone. Donate to someone else, right? Well, actually, sometimes you should throw something away. Don't. Don't send anything to a donation center that's ripped or soiled.

Erica Rawls:

You know.

Sarah Hackenberg:

So yeah, you want to make sure it's something that people would legitimately want.

Erica Rawls:

But the whole idea of what if I need it someday is very powerful. No, but it comes back. What if it comes back? It's very fashion. You keep your eyes on, you know what's going on in the industry and you are very fashionable. I know yes, so it may come back.

Sarah Hackenberg:

All right, there's a couple ways to think about it. Yeah, one is it taking up space that you want for the current trend? And maybe you have right, you might have a big enough closet where it's like, oh, actually, no, I do have a small section of my closet for the really, really nice pieces, yeah, special pieces, yeah, and you have room for it. Okay, you know what I'm, I'm fine with that, ok. If you don't have a big enough closet, though, or you're like, yeah, but I keep buying this other stuff, and then we're cramming, cramming, cramming these things, and you can't even access your clothes anymore, yeah, then I might push a little bit on that one.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, hey. Ok. So the people in fashion yes, I just saved y'all. Yes, saved y'all big time. Absolutely yeah, because I was like what Get rid of all this stuff? Okay, so, special pieces we can keep, yeah. Everything else that no longer serves us, we can get rid of. Yeah, but that, yeah, I wish.

Sarah Hackenberg:

But the special ones. I mean that's special. You could replace it quickly for a reasonable cost if you ever decide you need it or if it comes back in fashion. Yeah, if you could do that, throw it away now or donate it now, okay. But your leather jacket, which was unique and it was a little more, you spend some money on that. Well, that's not something you could replace quickly for low cost. So that sort of hits that mark too. Yeah, so there you go, two different permissions to keep it. Yeah, if only you had known back then so?

Erica Rawls:

did you ever run across someone that, just like they, really struggled with getting rid of their items? Very much like what do you recommend for that person? I mean, because I'm thinking at that point well, you tell us, yeah, tell us what you would do.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Well, I do say that you know decluttering and making choices. It is, it's a muscle. You do need to start off. You don't go in and start. You know lifting 50 pound weights. You need to start off with your five pound weights or your 10 pound weights, right? So you want to start with the low hanging fruit. You want to start with the easy decisions, so you want to start with the low hanging fruit.

Sarah Hackenberg:

You want to start with the easy decisions, so this is why you do start by decluttering a junk drawer, yeah, and start by, you know, decluttering cleaning supplies that are crowding under your kitchen sink or your bathroom sink. Maybe your shoe collection, Because, again, fashion wise, maybe they're not. Sir, I need you to stay away from fashion. I'm talking to the wrong person about the shoe collection, but you might be able to realize oh okay, you know these are special, but you know I can get rid of 10 pairs of my. I have 50 pairs, I don't know.

Erica Rawls:

I don't know.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Some people, you know, a shoe collection is not so emotional, but you do want to practice on the easy things first, and so that by the time you get around to the more emotional decisions, a couple of things have happened. Number one you've practiced and you're feeling you're getting better at making decisions. Number two you're seeing progress in your space. You're starting to see the room that you've created by letting go some of those easy things and you are getting some energy and some motivation and some good feelings from that which. So then, by the time you are looking at the more emotional things, you are more aware of what you're going to gain by letting some of those things go the energy, the space that's allowing you to think about who you want to be next, where you want to go next. But you have to build up to it. So I would say start on the easy things, Okay that's good.

Erica Rawls:

Start with the easy things. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. So have you ever had someone you had to turn away Like you're, just like you know what?

Sarah Hackenberg:

this is beyond me. I have not yet, but that's absolutely something I would do. You know I'm part of two. There are several national organizations for organizers and the two that I belong to the acronyms are NAPO and ICD. They have very strong ethical standards, which is so important to me, and one of the things that's ethical is knowing what you are and are not capable of, and not doing your client the disservice of taking on their job when you know that you can't truly serve them in the way that they need, truly serve them in the way that they need.

Sarah Hackenberg:

So you know, hoarding disorder is a mental health disorder, officially at this point and often so. There's a scale for that and if someone it's a one to five scale. If someone was at a three, four, five level of dealing with hoarding disorder, that would, for example, example, not be a client that I would. I know I cannot serve them as they would need. I have done some education in helping in that way. But you really need a team of people and you need major family and friends support, as well as often a mental health professional to help this person.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Because, yes, making decisions and letting go of emotional things is hard for everybody, but if you're dealing with the hoarding disorder, it's actually things that would not seem like a big deal to you and me can be very, very traumatic. What are the signs? Because I mean so, if you think about people who are, as a hoarder, you know, and I have had clients, when I first meet them, say, oh, do you think I'm a hoarder? Or I am a hoarder, and so it is certainly terminology. We throw around a lot in our society, not too loosely, I think so. Yeah, because it does a disservice to the people who are truly suffering under the disorder. So one of the things to be aware of is if you have sometimes stacks of newspapers or stacks of coupons or stacks of magazines that you can't get rid of.

Erica Rawls:

Someone just cringed right now.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Yeah, and when I say stacks, it's not like a stack beside your coffee, your couch, that at some point you're going to go through, it's that it's really almost compulsive where your home is starting to be filled with stacks and stacks of, for example, magazines, to a point where it's maybe very difficult to get in and out of rooms. Oh wow, it's starting to be a safety hazard. Yeah, and you may understand that your house is crowded and still, if someone, a well-meaning friend or family member, says, hey, you know what, let me just take these to the recycling for you so that I can help clear out some space in this room, you won't be able to let it go. It will be a traumatic thing to let that go.

Erica Rawls:

So you're walking in the house, you see this. You're like, oh, this is beyond me. Do you have services that you offer as a backup?

Sarah Hackenberg:

Thankfully, there are multiple organizers in our area and I always try to reach out to as many as possible because one what I appreciate about organizers is the same thing as educators. We have a abundance mindset. We know that the need is there and there is business and need for all of us and, to my way of thinking, the more organizers I know, the better I can serve my clients. When I'm not the right person or I don't have room in my schedule, I can recommend someone else. I can recommend someone who specializes perhaps in working with people with hoarding disorder, or have more, a bigger team available if they're helping someone clear out and they have a time limit. So absolutely always want to be recommending someone else if they would.

Erica Rawls:

So you never go in the home and say, oh, you have a hoarding disorder. You may want to get in contact with X. That's not your lane at all. You're just like. Hey, I may know of another organizer that'd be able to serve you better organizer that be able to serve you better.

Sarah Hackenberg:

I have never yet walked into a home and but it would absolutely be something I would take seriously to think about. Can I really help this person now that I see their conditions? Can I help them as a solopreneur is working on my own or not? And if I can, I need to be honest with myself. If I can't help them, then I am going to refer them to someone else.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, so Gen Z's and millennials are talking about minimalists. I'm a minimalist. Can we define that? What does that?

Sarah Hackenberg:

mean. So minimalism is doing with less right, and I think it's so interesting. On one end of the scale, when I say I'm an organizer, people think about Quarters, the TV show and on the other end, it's Marie Kondo who I think stands out to people as the minimalist, the one who is. You know, hold it, does it spark joy? And if the answer is no, let it go. And in many of her books she does advocate for less is probably more.

Sarah Hackenberg:

And so people are worried that they're going to hire me and I'm going to make them get rid of all their stuff because I think the best thing is minimalism and the truth is I don't think there is. The only way to be organized is to be a minimalist. I have a friend we talk regularly about. My style is actually a little more minimal and hers is more on the maximal side. But as long as you can access what you enjoy, as long as your collections, you can view them so that you're truly enjoying them. If you want more things, that's fine. I'm only here to help you make sure you know what's really important to you and make those choices and reconsider if the things you've just been hanging on to for years or decades sometimes is still that important to you? And then the things that we decide together are important to you. Make sure they're optimally stored in your home so that you can access and enjoy them. Ok, and so I don't think minimalism is necessarily the answer to not being organized.

Erica Rawls:

So meaning one of everything Is that a definition of a minimalist Like you only have one item, and how would you?

Sarah Hackenberg:

That's interesting. I guess a minimalist. Honestly, I think it's not even having one of everything, it's having not all the things. You don't even need to have one thing in every category, right? Not all the things. You don't even need to have one thing in every category, right? You can think I'm trying to think of a good example as far as like a decor kind of thing.

Erica Rawls:

Hey, I need to take two seconds to interrupt this wonderful show that you're watching. I run a real estate business and the way we fund this podcast is through that business, the Erica Ross team. I would love it if you would just give us one opportunity to service your real estate needs, whether you are in central PA or around the entire world. Think of us first, so we can help you. Now back to the show.

Sarah Hackenberg:

So, like pillows you know it's not necessarily a minimalist will only have one pillow, right. On the other hand, throw blankets Maybe they have decided I don't even need one throw blanket. So it's really considering everything that society tells me we need and I should buy, just sort of rejecting that idea and saying I don't need to buy everything. And air fryers, right, tons of kitchens have those. Now Maybe a minimalist is able to say not only do I not need to have two, because I got one on a great discount at Costco and I have it in case the first one breaks. The minimalist would say actually I don't need an air fryer at all because the way I cook doesn't connect to an air fryer, and so I'm just going to reject that idea as the current trend that everyone's supposed to buy Right, and in that way I do appreciate minimalism as a current approach to a consumerism.

Sarah Hackenberg:

Yeah Is just saying no. It's not always just because I'm being advertised to that I should buy it to keep up with my neighbor or who.

Erica Rawls:

I see, that's what I was going to say. So for my generation, they're choosing not to keep up with the Joneses, right? So if you're a minimalist, you're like, no, I don't need it. Yeah, do I really, you know, do I really need it? Right?

Sarah Hackenberg:

if not, then I'm just gonna let it go and I applaud that and I think that's a valuable attitude. Whatever you call it, I think that's really a valuable way to look at things.

Erica Rawls:

So, sarah, how can someone get in?

Sarah Hackenberg:

contact with you. So my website is Grace and Cycles. Yes, we were just talking, I know, it's just so easy to talk with you. So, grace, because I know that we all need a little extra help, we all need some grace, sometimes in different cycles of our life.

Sarah Hackenberg:

So, grace and Cycles is the name of my company, graceandcyclescom, is my website and I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram and Facebook. Yeah, so I always tell people I'm happy to talk through, you know, do a free phone consultation, talk about where they're at and what they're trying to achieve and sometimes I do what they're trying to achieve and sometimes I do because I had a background in education really try to share. A lot of my posts are educational just trying to either, you know, change mindsets or change attitudes that maybe are hurtful or not helpful to your own process. Give tips. So if people I want to empower people to make the choices about the things in their life so that they are happy where they're at and can envision what they want for themselves next, and if I can do that with just a few tips that spark something for you, wonderful. If you want a little bit more help and want to work with me, then I'm also happy to do that.

Erica Rawls:

So, yeah, that's awesome. Who knew talking about clutter would go so deep and be so good?

Sarah Hackenberg:

Well, I know it because, yeah, you seem to always bring this out on your guests.

Erica Rawls:

Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Yes, it was a pleasure having coffee with you too. Okay, y'all, until next time, if you enjoyed this. I need you to do me a favor. I need you to subscribe Excuse me, I got excited. Subscribe, like, share and, most of all, please comment, because I'm looking forward to meeting you in the comments.

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Erica Rawls

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