Coffee With E

Hair Story, Poetry, and Power with Maria James-Thiaw

• Erica Rawls

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In this episode of Coffee with E, host Erica Rawls sits down with Maria James-Thiaw, poet, playwright, professor, and author of Hair Story: Reclaiming Our Crown.

They dive into the deeper meaning behind hair from tribal identity in African culture to the pain of hair-based discrimination in modern America. Maria opens up about:

  • Writing during COVID while raising two kids with special needs
  • Why poetry became her way to process grief, racism, and isolation
  • Shocking stories uncovered while researching Hair Story, including relaxers used without consent
  • The importance of self-worth, cultural heritage, and passing on hair pride to the next generation

This conversation is for anyone ready to unpack the truth behind hair, identity, and healing. Whether you’re a creative, a parent, an ally, or someone seeking wholeness, this one’s for you.  

📚 Purchase Maria’s books: https://bookshop.org/shop/Maria-James-Thiaw

🌐 Learn more at Reclaim Arts: http://www.reclaimarts.com

📲 Follow Maria on Instagram: @reclaimarts (https://www.instagram.com/reclaimarts)

🎧 If this episode moved you, leave a review or share it with someone who needs to hear it.

#HairStory #BlackHairMatters #CrownAct #CulturalIdentity #CoffeeWithE #PoetryAndPurpose #ReclaimYourCrown #LatinaVoices #WomenInLeadership #EricaRawls



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Erica Rawls:

Welcome to another episode of Coffee with E. You guys need to sit back and listen to this next episode. You know how I say I'm excited about all the episodes. It's because I really am. I promise you this episode. I had the opportunity to sit down and have coffee with none other than Maria James Chow. She actually is a published author and her latest is Hair Story, and it talks about the journey that people go through with their hair and what it actually means. Did you know that in Africa, certain tribes may have been identified simply by the way that they wore their hair? Mm-hmm, yep, and did you know? Well, I'm not going to spoil it for you. Y'all listen to the end, because when I tell you she shares something that she found in her research that just totally blew my mind. Let me know what you think. Did it blow your mind too? Well, welcome Maria. How are you?

Maria James-Thiaw:

I'm great. Thank you for having me here.

Erica Rawls:

You're so welcome. It's such a pleasure to actually sit down and have a conversation with you. I've heard very dynamic things about you, but I would love for our audience to learn a little bit, so you can just give us a little bit of background information on you, so then we'll dive right in and have our chat, okay.

Maria James-Thiaw:

Well, I'm a poet and I've been writing since I was a little kid, and I've been expanding into playwriting as well in the last five, six years or so and so, and then on my in addition to that, for the last 20 years I've been a professor as well.

Erica Rawls:

Where.

Maria James-Thiaw:

I've been 16 years at central penn college, okay, and then also at southern new hampshire, and then so some other adjunct positions, but I'm definitely more these days of a creative entrepreneur and teaching like what I'm passionate about, which is creative writing and poetry in a freelance capacity.

Erica Rawls:

And what led you into that space, like what was it about it that gave you your passion or ignited your passion?

Maria James-Thiaw:

Oh well, it's always been there and it's always been on the side there and it's always been on the side and it definitely, as I explored different avenues and things, there's nothing that really gets my focus, gets my joy, pops my head off the pillow like um writing and sharing my poetry with the world. So I had to be creative in finding ways that I could make my passion pay the rent, basically.

Erica Rawls:

Oh wonderful. So then about that passion, like what is it about the creative writing and the playwriting that gets you excited, like you're just like ah.

Maria James-Thiaw:

Well, I decided when I was little that once I learned how to write I was going to make poems. And that's weird because I didn't have the skill yet. But I saw my father performing, reading his poetry, I saw him writing, I saw him sharing with people, sitting in circles and sharing his words with people. I said I'm going to do that and and so I started very young. And then, as a little kid, I I was encouraged, winning contests and getting teachers attentions and things like that. I was encouraged and I think that's really important with young people to encourage the gifts that they have rather than trying to push them into your direction, to encourage where they are.

Maria James-Thiaw:

And for a while I did stop, you know angsty teenager. But in college I picked it up again and started, started publishing, published my first chapbook at 19 and it's just I don't know why, but it's just the thing that really just gives me that spark and for me also the matter. It's like when I was a little kid I might've wrote about teddy bears and bumblebees, but but I write about social justice and even if I try to write about like nature or something you know it's, the snowflakes are pounding on me it turns into social justice. So it so it's just literally yeah, no matter what I try.

Erica Rawls:

So so social justice is your channel or your your focus when you write your poetry and your your plays and so forth.

Maria James-Thiaw:

I would definitely say, when it comes to the, the work that we must do to create an equitable society, my tool in that work is a pen. Someone else's tool might be, you know, hitting the streets protesting. Someone else might be in the legislature. My tool is poetry.

Erica Rawls:

Oh wow, okay is poetry, oh wow okay.

Maria James-Thiaw:

So then, what's some recent like um, published work that you've done that you're excited about? Um, my most recent book is called count each breath, and it was my picture of what 2020 was like. As a Black woman, I had some unique challenges, and I knew that this time was very historic, that we were going through A hundred years from now. What did that look like for an African-American woman in this society? So I also had the challenge of being a teacher and suddenly being thrust into that online space and then having two children with special needs at home too.

Maria James-Thiaw:

So, there, we had our little home school set up. It had been the dining room, but you've got one kid here in middle school. We've got our little well, actually, he was like sixth, fifth, fifth grade at that time. Then I've got my kindergartner over here, okay, and then I have a room full of high schoolers online. So look great. Um, yeah, I was teaching ninth through tw 12th. Um, I had one class of 9th and 10th and another 11th and 12th that creative writers, all artists, so very we're all very emotional at this point. Yeah, wow, yeah. So it was a challenge. Plus, my husband had visited family back home in Africa, where he's from okay and the borders shut down, so we didn't see him for the next six months six months, so how in the world did you maintain?

Maria James-Thiaw:

there was there, there, it was definitely a challenge for a while. I well I, writing it really helped me maintain. Going on to Zoom, discovering that which I had never used before that time, and so, most of the world yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah going going into the spaces where people were having, um, poetry readings and and uh, connecting with some friends. That way that helped me get, um, you know, get my words back wow, so was he able to work while he was over in africa no, he actually got fired while he was over there.

Maria James-Thiaw:

He got fired. Yeah, they said how are you gonna fire somebody? No, he couldn't, he couldn't help it. He's out of his control. They held his job for like three months or something, and then they, they terminated him. Uh, I think that's legal. Was that legal? I'm not sure, I'm not. Tell you the truth, I'm not sure. But he, he's done with them anyway, like he was, like I mean at that new opportunities, yeah, and once he came back, he's doing well now wow, he's doing, okay.

Maria James-Thiaw:

Yeah, bounce back on his feet yep, you're doing good, okay, yeah, much better actually oh my gosh.

Erica Rawls:

So he was over there, okay, I, because I want to get clarity, because this is bizarre to me. So he was over there during covid. They shut the border down because of covid. He wasn't bizarre to me, so he was over there during COVID. They shut the border down because of COVID. He wasn't able to come back home. He was over there for six months. His job said well, okay, well, you need to come home.

Maria James-Thiaw:

Yeah, I remember getting the letter. It was job abandonment or something like that. I remember calling them how's. He abandoned his job, um, and part of it could be, I don't know. I I remember the on the media, the uh president's people getting on and celebrating how many people they brought home and, um, acting like they were done. If that was like wait a minute, your husband's still yeah, he's still over there, permanent resident. He's been here for so many years. And also he had some false alarms too, where the government would say, okay, we're picking up all the US residents at such and such time, and then, for some reason, plane veered off and picked up people in the neighboring country too, so now there's not enough room for everyone. Or they'll say that happened three different times. Or they'll say, well, we decided to only pick up the people with kids, or you know, it's like he's got kids, they're over here, right? Yeah, it was definitely a challenge yeah, it was um.

Erica Rawls:

2020 was challenging for a lot of people. Yeah, I mean just so, just hearing the stories, you're the aftermath. It's just, it's like it's sad but it sounds like he.

Maria James-Thiaw:

He bounced back and was able to he did okay once he came, came back and he got a different position. He's really good at that. He's really nothing. He is a rock.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's the one who you didn't put pen to paper with that one with his story.

Maria James-Thiaw:

Well, he's, he's woven into count each breath actually Really yes, which I should have brought a copy in with me, but but yeah, he's definitely woven in there some of the conversations we had. He definitely had his attitude stayed positive where mine went like this sometimes I mean you're back home with the children.

Erica Rawls:

You're working all these high schools on Zoom all day long. I could just imagine.

Maria James-Thiaw:

Yeah.

Erica Rawls:

Emotions are probably high, wondering if he's coming home, if he's okay, yeah, it was very.

Maria James-Thiaw:

It was really difficult and, um, I have a poem called no, because I found myself saying no to so many things for the kids. Can I go outside? No, is daddy coming on? No, is it no?

Erica Rawls:

no, and both.

Maria James-Thiaw:

The bone just goes like that we're just over it now for everything. Wow, so yeah, but that you know, as a poet I can weave some ugly things in with beauty and, um, deliver it in a way that people can understand it better than maybe or listen better than they would. A history lesson or a news show or something like that, like some. So that's that's what I try to do with my work yeah, so what work are you most proud of?

Maria James-Thiaw:

Oh boy, I'm really proud of Hair Story. Hair Story is a choreo poem that I wrote, and that choreo poem is a stage play, that is, many poems woven together to tell a cohesive story. And the way I got the inspiration for those poems, um, I picked my topic and I talked to many different people about their hair story and mainly, I wanted to reveal something to the public about hair discrimination that women face when you have African ancestry. So I talked to mostly Black women, but also some Latinas, and there I learned some interesting things about the Dominican community and even some young men, about discrimination they face in the workplace, in the community, in schools and even at home, into creating messages with their hair. Hair that says that I am a queen, hair that says that I am ready for marriage. You know, it was just I mean. So I learned so much.

Maria James-Thiaw:

And then I had this great artistic community to come together to bring it forth on the stage. So we premiered it at gamut theater in 2023 on harrisburg and had a very successful run. And, um, our part, community partners, the harrisburg um pa, um, the harrisburg pa chapter of the Links Incorporated really helped us to get the funding and get the word out and it was. It was really special. They were there, they were interested in finding a way to support the Crown Act, which is creating a, creating a. I might not get the whole acronym, that's okay, but basically it's an anti-discrimination law focused on African textured hair Right Hairstyles. So it was a match made in heaven.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, some of the things that you discovered when you went through this research for this book hair story hair story.

Maria James-Thiaw:

hair story reclaiming our crown OK.

Erica Rawls:

And yeah. So when you went through that research you were saying some of the things that you found were like you were shocked by those.

Maria James-Thiaw:

For instance, in Dominican hair salons, there has been a practice of sneaking hair relaxer into shampoo and using that shampoo on women they consider to have pelo malo bad hair without their permission and, as you may know, that stuff burns right. So if it's left in too long or whatever, it burns and it will mess up your curl pattern, stuff. So so there have been lawsuits in the United States of Dominican owned shops where they did that and, yeah, someone that I interviewed that lived in Lancaster, pa, had that experience so it's such a PA.

Maria James-Thiaw:

We have someone that's very oh my god so I wrote a poem called pelo malo, and I was honored to have a young woman, um from the dominican republic on the cat in our cast. So it's like very authentic and so what's considered bad hair? Uh, dominican kinky coily african looking hair oh my gosh, that's so sad.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, so if it was straight, that's good hair, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, wow. And otherwise they're putting shampoo with a little spritz of relaxer in there and shampooing their hair. Yeah.

Maria James-Thiaw:

And then wondering why is Lynn a little bit like?

Erica Rawls:

that as well. So what else did you find?

Maria James-Thiaw:

find um a lot of uh, young men that um weren't allowed to play sports because of their hairstyle, and there's some been some national stories about that. But um, even um, and in private schools a lot, it was a wrestler, wasn't there? The?

Erica Rawls:

wrestler that had the braids. Oh, he had dreadlocks. Okay, this is all coming back. They said he had to cut them off in order for him.

Maria James-Thiaw:

The rest I do remember this and what's interesting about that? I had dreadlocks for 22 years and they came. They came out against my will. Once my son came, uh, something had to be. The hair texture changed. But um, but, dreads are very serious.

Erica Rawls:

It's not like people don't take that step lightly and so, yeah, no, because I contemplated it, I'm like, yeah, my hair's gonna be locked up, yeah yeah, that is a long.

Maria James-Thiaw:

So I mean people would ask questions when are you taking those out? You don't take those out. Those are, that's what locks? Yeah, you don't. And um, that was one of my favorite poems too was um, I had two uh actors in the elevator and uh one on the outside, kind of illustrating. You know, you ever see somebody giving you the side eye and you and, and just the way the actors portrayed it, where it's like I'm just going to touch. Nope, you know, right, but locks have like rules, like locks are spiritual Locks are like you don't touch them.

Erica Rawls:

I don't know. Well, if I never went in the lock, it was a whole culture.

Maria James-Thiaw:

It's a culture. It's a culture. You're walking down the street and is you see some of my other walkman? So it's like you know each other. You know really. It's like I had um, a friend said they're his spiritual antenna. He's like his lock started buzzing. He knew something was wrong at home. He went home. His girlfriend was cheating. He knew something was wrong. No, yeah, people are very serious about their locks. So to have locks cut off publicly like that, um, no, that would not go well. So the poem I wrote with that I really mixed in some some um scripture like I am a Nazarite, right, you know, my hair is my strength. Um, if you cut it off, I'll be like any other man, like um and just wonderful actor Josh Selvey. He just man, he dropped to his knees and said I carry my locks in a bag and just you felt that Really Somebody took that from him. Wow.

Erica Rawls:

So my daughter, she well, she had locks and she decided to cut them off. And now that you're saying that, I do remember her saying that she wanted a fresh start because your hair holds energy, that's it, yeah. Yeah, you were saying that I'm like wow, so this is really a thing. But that explains, though. But I think for women, period, it doesn't matter what ethnicity or race whatever you are right Culture or background, whenever you want a fresh start, most times you could tell they're going through something, because the first thing they do is cut their hair. They cut their hair or they'll dye their hair. Yeah, so that just makes total sense. Gonna wash that man out of my hair.

Maria James-Thiaw:

Do you remember that? That's the old song. So yeah, I think, universally, I think people can understand that, and there are certain cultures where there's even like kind of a sense of magic in it. That's why my poem Clean in Hair Story was so powerful, because you get to know a little bit about African culture to start out, and then you find out that when the slave traders come, one of the first things they did was shave their heads. And to symbolize that, like what that meant, we had something we called blood cloth. It was like a red cloth that went over them once that process took place, because now someone who had been royalty looked like everyone else, someone who believed.

Erica Rawls:

Because in Africa, your hair is your crown, and they were right. Determined on how your hair was actually was determined what tribe you were from, too. Exactly. So then cutting off your hair was actually making you like, look like everyone else. Yeah, so you weren't able to differentiate who was who exactly?

Maria James-Thiaw:

and that was the reason for doing it. And then think, if you have the belief system you've grown up in the tribe that said that there's magical properties here. So, like now, my hair is on the floor with hair from here and here and here, and what? What are they going to do? Are they going to cast a spell on us or something like that, like the fear that is drummed up in that. So I tried to reflect all of that in the, in the poetry that I wrote wow, yeah, I wish you did have some poetry, because I want to hear it.

Erica Rawls:

It's okay, okay, and so then anyone that wants to get a copy of your, your book, like how do we get?

Maria James-Thiaw:

a copy anywhere, anywhere books are sold um, I know there's some on the shelf at midtown scholar in harrisburg, or aaron's books and lit it, uh.

Erica Rawls:

But also, uh, bookshoporg I love because that supports indie bookstores, or, of course, our trusty amazon yeah, wow, so did I hear you say that you're going to have a play for um hair story.

Maria James-Thiaw:

So hair story is uh, we did perform it. You performed Uh-huh, okay, but um, I'm starting the initiative now to reach out, reaching out to different um colleges to uh see if they will like us to come perform it for their students. So, and you know, when a, when a university has theater, they can open it to the public as well. And if there was anybody watching that you know has some connections in your town and want me to come, we can, we can bring it there.

Erica Rawls:

Wow. So, besides the research you, you, you did on this story right and like the I mean the great things that you found right, that you were able to uncover, like what's the most impactful piece that you think it is that someone will walk away with if they read, when they read your book?

Maria James-Thiaw:

I really love, um like, when it comes to hair story, I really feel like people walk a little taller, and that's the most important thing to me to for you to understand the historic connection and love yourself a little bit better, and for allies to understand kind of the depth of this issue and which would strengthen their position as an ally as well, and for those that thought that hair is just a fashion thing and who cares to understand that it's much deeper of cultural and spiritual significance to people of african descent yeah.

Erica Rawls:

So because this platform is about, um, the wholeness of a person. How do you think the hair, the hair journey of you know african-american women, latina women, you know even white women like, how do you think that hair actually um, assists or actually becomes a challenge to becoming whole? Because I know, when I was growing up, right, I had a challenge of seeing people that did not look like me and trying to figure out okay, so how can I get my hair to look like you know my classmates, Right? So that was a challenge and even would I would. I mean I can confess that even at home I put a sheet on my head trying to look like you know my classmates, but I'm like well, why does my hair not look like that? You know, I ask the questions with your parents. So I wonder how much of that ties to your identity. Growing up, not seeing others that look like you and dealing with you know the, I guess, the mental impact of your self-worth or your wholeness and your evolution of your person.

Maria James-Thiaw:

Yeah, it definitely, um it. I definitely had many poems reflecting, uh, young people's stories like that. Being um, and I personally grew up, um, I remember my mom first chopped all my hair off and I don't know what she was thinking, and then people thought I was a boy and then, and then, um, I think it was just hard to manage it was it's 4c hair and I think it was a lot. And then, um, she would just tried so many different things and, yes, I lived through that Jerry curl era. It was dripping and just and and I remember to have in the sheet to look like my friends and my Barbies and all of that.

Maria James-Thiaw:

And there's some interesting stories too, where we had a single dad whose wife had left him with three kids, and the one that looked most like the wife was the one with the kinky hair and that affected her self-esteem, and that was one of the stories that came through and also a girl that had grown up. We call it Brittany with the. I called it Brittany with the good hair Because the teacher was calling these two girls named Brittany and to distinguish them said no, not you the one with the good hair, you know, and that other, the other britney just feel like she was worthless. So so many stories of that uh impact on self-worth. So we need to think about how we talk to, um, our young girls and boys, because, um, most people start feeling that discrimination, uh, at before they're 10 years old and and there's I forget the exact percentage but girls in high school have been known to stay home because, um, their hair wasn't right.

Maria James-Thiaw:

You know, know, I actually, I actually I love head wraps. I always wear head wraps, whether it's a headband or a wrap. It's part of my connection to my ancestors. But I also recently had some alopecia because of a very stressful situation that I went through, situation that I went through, and so alopecia is when you know your hair comes out.

Erica Rawls:

So so the head wraps help until it can strengthen and come back. Yeah, yeah, wow. Well, this is a really good story. I think it shed light on the fact that one you know, most people don't worry about their hair. You know, you know, and it but are the hair, and you know the black American and Latina communities. It's more than just hair, it actually, it may tie to our ancestors, you know. So I think that was enlightening. And then to hear that you wrote these poems about the challenges and the struggles that we have, I'm interested to read it. I am interested to read it, read the poems and to see, you know, what we can learn and to, to share with our daughters. My kids are grown, but I'm thinking my little nieces, you know, and then my. I think it'd be something for them to, to walk away with something as well well for to hear some of the hair story poems.

Maria James-Thiaw:

There um is a clip of hair story reclaiming my crown on youtube and there's also um the link in this. Yeah, yeah, and I have a website which has our study guide and some more.

Erica Rawls:

So there's a course for reclaiming. You said study guide, so there's actually a course you can take.

Maria James-Thiaw:

Well, it's not a full course, but we developed a study guide to like, connect, like, where you can learn the history of hair picks, of um hair, hair picks and the. You know, the oldest hair pick is 6 000 years old.

Erica Rawls:

They found it in africa, yep wow and um.

Maria James-Thiaw:

There's so many facts like that, as well as um for white parents that have adopted african or black children, um, there is a guide for them on healthy hair and skin. There's hair positive toys and books. So all of that's listed on my website, which is wwwreclaimartscom. That's my creative business, reclaim Arts.

Erica Rawls:

I love that. Well, we'll be sure to make sure that we have all those links in the description for this episode so people can reach out to you if they have any questions, and then the best way they reach out to you I believe you shared with me was it Instagram? Was it Instagram? Yeah, instagram is good. Yeah, yeah, so we'll make sure that we tag everyone so if they have questions about it as well. So, but I appreciate you sharing your story and her story. Yeah, and hair story does all the stories, yeah. So, great poet and published author, you're amazing, thank you, thank you. Thank you for your time. Okay, y'all, you heard it, thank you, thank you. Thank you for your time. Okay, y'all, you heard it. Hair story you got to reach out and give it a read. I'm interested, I'm intrigued to see what's in there. I learned some stuff today. So I really appreciate you sharing and taking time out to sit with us and have conversation and you know what y'all, if you enjoyed this, I need to hear from you. Hit subscribe.

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